Interview of Jean Khoury by Claudine Bochatay, 2009 (Translated from French)
I- Questions
II- Further Reflections
III- Practical Questions
I – Questions
CB: Good morning, Jean! It has now been a long time that you have been speaking about Mary—books, discussions, courses, etc.—and from reading you, I am increasingly realising that she has a special place ready at the heart of our personal faith. I say “ready” because for the average believer, not at all mystical or at least not very spiritually diligent, it is not so obvious to give her that place. Perhaps we do not know how to open our hearts to her enough. Perhaps we do not really understand her importance in our daily lives and not just during the few great feasts dedicated to her. The Church grants her great attention, but we, the members of the Church, I feel, do not make enough sense of Our Mother. Tell us about this special place of Mary at the heart of our lives—both spiritual and daily.
JK: First of all, thank you, CB, for your interest in the Virgin Mary in our spiritual life. Indeed, her place is very important in our spiritual life, on a daily basis. The saints have often emphasised—by way of personal confidence—that there is a treasure to be discovered here and that a deep relationship with the Virgin Mary is the secret to holiness! At this point, when we hear such a statement, we instinctively feel the need to pause and take a closer look at this aspect of Christian faith, which at first glance appears surprising and rather bold. We cannot relegate this to the level of private personal devotion of certain saints, as it is a common thread among many of them—especially the greatest ones (Grignon de Montfort, Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, Padre Pio, etc.). This deserves our attention, a spirit of inquiry and deeper exploration in order to discover what we do not yet see, what we do not yet know!
CB: Mary is all humble. Is she humble towards us, poor sinners, too? Tell us about Mary’s humility—she who bears the most grandiose titles: “Queen of Heaven,” “Queen of All Saints,” “Queen of Angels,” “Mother of God,” etc.
JK: You begin with the most difficult topic—speaking of Mary’s humility! It is difficult because, in my view, it is the deepest aspect of her. She is somewhat like “God in reverse”—a capacity to receive God. Just as a glove is the “reverse” of a hand. But her humility is mysterious; we cannot grasp it with our limited understanding. I believe we must grow in the spiritual life and in our relationship with Mary, receiving “grace upon grace,” as Saint John says in his Prologue, in order to begin entering into the mystery of Mary and, consequently, into the mystery of Mary’s humility. It is an abyss of depth—an extraordinary capacity to receive God and, within her, all of humanity. It is not without reason that the Eastern tradition calls Mary “she who contained within herself the One whom the heavens (that is to say, the angels) could not contain” (cf. the icon of the Platytéra or the Virgin of the Sign). And the Christ she contains is at once God, Christ the Head, and Christ the Body. Who can comprehend this capacity to contain such a “world”!
Moreover, you ask about Mary’s humility, and you rightly highlight her “titles” of greatness! I like to say that Mary is a mystery because she embodies two dimensions—somewhat (though only analogically because she is not God) like Christ, who is both God and man. Mary is both great and small! On one side, she is the “Mother of God”, the one who gave birth to the One who is God, and on the other, she is a daughter of Eve—a created being, a child of the earth, human. The two “extremes” of Mary’s mystery do not contradict each other, do not exclude each other but rather complement one another!
And to choose one aspect at the expense of the other is to abandon the true Mary and her mystery. If, in the past, there was an excess in the mention of her greatness, it is not balanced to fall into the opposite excess – that of mentioning only her smallness. And if we closely observe her greatness and her humility, we will see that they attract each other, that they complement each other and are dependent on one another.
Let us return to what we were saying about Mary’s humility. It is the mystery of her humility—so profound and so overwhelming—that drew God towards her. This is what she declares in her Magnificat: “He has looked upon the lowliness[1] of His servant.” In doing so, she reveals to us her secret—the secret of her “power” over God, her power of “seduction.” This seems to refer to something that, in my opinion, took place before the Annunciation. She must have demonstrated, through her humble charity, such total and merciful attention to the people (to all humanity) walking in darkness (Isaiah 9), praying to God and imploring Him to send His Messiah, that she drew God into herself! He was captivated by her astonishing humility—her compassion for those walking in the land of the shadow of death (Isaiah 9). This is an active, welcoming humility! And what she welcomes first and foremost is Divine Charity within her—the Holy Spirit (“Full of grace”); and this receptivity enables the Holy Spirit to make her an extraordinary place of hospitality where all humanity is invited, and, within her, prays to God to send His Messiah. It was in being captivated by this action of Mary that God rushed towards her: “He has looked upon (He has given attention, He has poured out His grace—what Hebrew meaning of this word have we lost?) the lowliness of His servant!” She descended, through her immense charity, into the land of the shadow of death, and, in solidarity with all those walking in darkness, through her charity, she prayed, implored, and drew Him in! The divine charity active in Mary attracted God Himself—the like attracts the like, and they enkindle one another in a sort of divine emulation of charity! Would God allow Himself to be outdone in charity?
CB: On the AGAPE French Forum, you posted a text titled “The Eighth Day.” In it, you wrote: “Look not on our sins (every act we might commit, every means other than Mary that we might seek to encounter You, to see You and to enter under Your Tent, O Christ), but on the faith of Your Church —that is to say, the faith of Mary herself!” Does this mean that all those who do not have a true devotion to Mary remain on the margins of this Communion and do not even approach the mountain of the Transfiguration?
JK: It is not for us humans to dictate to God His conduct towards men. We judge by appearances and are ignorant of the depths of human conscience and the paths of each individual.
However, from an objective point of view, we cannot deny the fundamental role that Mary plays in the Christian Faith! If we closely follow the Gospel, we would understand to what extent everything is suspended on “the One who believed”—the only one who believed! Saint Luke takes care to present us with two annunciations in parallel: one that “does not work”—that of Zechariah (who represents us all, incapable of believing in God’s Salvation (Christ)), and that of Mary, which worked for herself, for Zechariah, for Elizabeth, and for all of us! Mary believed for herself and for all of us who, like Zechariah, are incapable of believing in Christ.
This is why Elizabeth, moved by the Holy Spirit, will define Mary as: “The one who has believed in what was spoken to her by the Most High!” Whereas her husband, she herself, and all of us are “those who have not believed in what was spoken to us by the Most High!” We rely on Mary’s faith, and thus her faith becomes our faith, as Pope John Paul II so beautifully states in his Encyclical on the Virgin Mary “Redemptoris Mater”. (“For this reason, Mary’s faith, according to the Church’s apostolic witness, in some way continues to become the faith of the pilgrim People of God” (RM 28)) That is why Elizabeth will say to her: “You are blessed among all women”—”women” here referring to the capacity to believe—and Mary will respond with astonishing boldness: “All generations will call me blessed.”
Saint John, in turn, will show us in the Gospel of Cana in Galilee many mysteries, especially the fact that Mary is at the source of the apostles’ faith! They do not have the Wine, but she does! She believes in Christ and teaches us to believe in Him. It is through her that they gained access to the New Wine.
Similarly, in the accounts of the Resurrection, we can deduce between the lines that she is the only creature who believed in the Resurrection of Christ. This is a decisive element that should capture our attention, for the Resurrection is the heart of our faith!
The fundamental Parable of the Gospel, which enables us to understand all the other parables, is that of the Sower! Now, this one speaks of Good Soil, and the liturgy reminds us that the “Good Soil” is Mary! In the parable, we find that only the Good Soil bears fruit! We, on the other hand, are a mixture of the first three types of soil, and we wish to be like the Good Soil! The same applies to the New Wineskin, another way of referring to Mary!
Now, Mary is given to us, and her capacity to know Christ, to believe in Him, and to love Him is granted to us! This is what Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus says: “The virtues of the Mother belong to the child.” It is up to us, therefore, to receive Mary into our homes as Saint John did at the foot of the Cross and to allow her to grow within us so that we may become, in Her and through Her, the perfect Bride of Christ! For ultimately, there is only one wise Virgin and not five, and that is Mary, the only one who knew how to wait for the Resurrection.
CB: Is it enough to love Mary? Or, without truly understanding all her richness, do we pass by the graces she offers us?
JK: What does it mean to “love” Mary, to truly love her?! “To love” is to unite the lover with the beloved; love transforms the one who loves into the being loved. Oh yes, it would be enough to love Mary! Yet, one must love her deeply, totally, not as an end in itself (only God is God) but as the Mould that forms Christ in us and us in Christ. Christ on the Cross gives us Mary (cf. John 19); she is His Gift, His Testament. He gives her to us as a Mother, as the womb in which we must enter to be born again (cf. John 3). It is God’s choice, not ours! Yes, let us love her, and let this love become an immense fire. Our vocation is to acquire the way Mary knows and loves Jesus. We are called to be transformed in Mary, so that we may know and love Jesus not with our own miserable means (those of the old man) but with those of God, which are in Mary (those of the new man). It is by progressing in this path of love for Mary, by receiving her within us, in our hearts, in our eyes, that we will understand, day by day, the richness of the Gift that God gives us in giving her to us. “With her came to me all good things” (Wisdom 7:11), says Scripture. Tradition allows us to read this text not only about eternal Wisdom (Christ) but also about Mary. And in this astonishing affirmation, we find a great secret! If it is “with her” that one receives “all good things,” all graces, this means that in her, we have found the Well, the place where God has placed all His goods! Jesus is “all the goods” of God, and it is in Mary that Jesus is found in fullness and must be sought—as so well explained by the French School of Spirituality, of which Montfort is an heir.
To answer your question, I would say that love calls for love and generates spiritual growth; thus, it increases and becomes more active, more explicit as well, without losing any of its mystical depth.
CB: Tell us about the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. How are they united, and what importance does this hold for us?
JK: Reading certain authors of the French School—I am thinking of Saint John Eudes—I was struck by how much they emphasise the unity between Jesus and Mary, how much their hearts are united. They are inseparable! Let us try to see this more closely. We always say that the Sacrament of Marriage is indissoluble because it refers to an indissoluble bond, that of Christ and the Church! Curiously, we rarely think of Mary, who normally precedes the Church because she is its Mother! Pope John Paul II said something very profound about the link between Mary and the Church: he said that the Marian dimension of the Church precedes the Petrine dimension (of Peter, the Pope) (see: Mulieris Dignitatem 27, note 55 and CCC 773), and Paul VI, towards the end of the Second Vatican Council, declared Mary “Mother of the Church.” I like to say that before speaking of the indissoluble bond that unites Christ and the Church, we must first speak of the equally indissoluble bond that unites Christ and Mary! He indeed calls her “woman” (cf. John 2 and John 19). He is the New Adam who, like the first Adam, gives Eve her name: woman. But the deep meaning of “woman” (Ishsha in Hebrew, from Ish: man) is given by Adam himself. As he contemplates her, here is what he sees: “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ because she was taken out of man” (Genesis 2:23). Mary is “bone of Christ’s bones,” “flesh of His flesh,” she is taken from His open side, long before the Church! When we say “bone of His bones” or “flesh of His flesh,” we signify intimacy and a total bond. Christ, to signify the link that exists between Him and Mary, uses different examples we have mentioned above: soil and seed, wineskin and new wine, a piece of fabric. What is striking is that while the first two examples have polarity (feminine-masculine), the last, that of fabric, does not! Rather, it emphasises the indissolubility of the bond between Jesus and Mary: we cannot tear a piece from a new garment: “No one tears a piece from a new garment to patch an old garment” (Luke 5:36). Jesus, in His humanity, and Mary are one and the same new garment! What a mystery!
Thus, one understands that on the Cross, the first being to emerge from Christ’s side is not first the Church but Mary herself. In the Magnificat, she proclaims that Christ is her God and Saviour: “my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour,” who is now in my heart through faith and in my womb. Mary comes entirely from Christ, “flesh of his flesh,” and is not a parallel principle to Christ. It is within Christ’s open side that she finds her source!
This union between Jesus and Mary has a unique quality: in Mary, there is no obstacle to the work of the Holy Spirit, allowing God to act in her as He wills. This unity between Jesus and Mary is the unity that exists between the Divine Bridegroom and the creature. Jesus frequently presents himself as the Bridegroom, to be fully known and loved because He is God. This unity between Mary and Jesus is the guarantee of our unity with Jesus! For, in a way, it is “in Mary” that we are admitted to this unity. Mary holds the keys to the Wine Cellar, to the Bridal Chamber! She herself is the bridal chamber. This unity is the guarantee of our union; it is the fulfilment of our vocation; it is this unity that we contemplate, for it is our future! “Likewise, just as in heaven, where she is already glorified body and soul, the Mother of Jesus represents and inaugurates the Church in its perfection in the age to come, so too, on this earth, as she awaits the coming of the day of the Lord (cf. 2P 3:10), she shines forth as a sign of assured hope and consolation for the pilgrim People of God.” (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 68). It is in this light and from this perspective that we can understand citations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which are of extraordinary power and depth: (note the constant polarity in faith: the object of faith—Christ Jesus, God; the perfect subject of faith—Mary. Mary believes first.)
“The Virgin Mary perfectly fulfils the obedience of faith.” (CCC 148) “The Church venerates in Mary the purest realisation of faith.” (CCC 149) “[…] Of this faith, the Virgin Mary is the supreme model; she who believed that ‘nothing is impossible for God’ and who was able to magnify the Lord: ‘The Mighty One has done great things for me, holy is His Name.'” (CCC 273) “She is the perfect intercessor, the figure of the Church.” (CCC 2679) “The Church’s prayer is as if borne by Mary’s prayer.” (CCC 2679) “By her complete adherence to the will of the Father, to the redemptive work of her Son, to every motion of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is for the Church the model of faith and charity. In this way, she is the ‘pre-eminent and wholly unique member of the Church,’ indeed, she constitutes ‘the exemplary realisation’ (‘typus’) of the Church.” (CCC 967)
CB: I have an old religious image depicting St John giving Communion to Mary. How should we understand Communion in relation to Mary?
JK: If you allow me, I would like to view Communion from another angle, in continuity with what we have been discussing. Mary is the first portion of the Body of Christ and the Mother of the Body of Christ—she brings it into being! She is also “flesh of his flesh,” in unity with Him. When we receive Communion, we receive the Whole Christ—Christ the Head and Christ the Body! Now, as we have seen, Mary is the one most united to Him, and further, it is “in her” (she being in Him in any case) that we are called to abide, as the perfect subject of faith, the one who knows and loves Christ best and who communicates this knowledge and love to us, transforming us into herself!
To receive Communion is to take one’s place before the Bridegroom-King, as Bride, within His Body that we receive.
The Communion that Mary receives from the hands of St John is all thanksgiving, all Eucharist, for in this “Communion,” she contemplates the strongest reflection of her origins: the open side of Christ. She plunges, full of gratitude, before the free gift of her being, which she receives from God on the Cross. That said, who are we to comprehend the mystery of this increase of Grace that Mary receives at each Communion, she who is already “Full of Grace”? Let us allow God to be God in Her and to act as only God can act! We must remove our “shoes” (Ex 3:5) to enter this divine realm of the relationship between Jesus and Mary. She is the Burning Bush, aflame with the Fire of Love for Jesus! She burns entirely with the divine Fire, yet she is not consumed.
CB: Why is devotion to Mary important, and what is its place in our lives compared to the worship given to God through His Son, Jesus Christ?
JK: This may seem strange to some, but the one is inseparable from the other! The worship given to Christ in Mary is like entering into the detail and unfolding of the worship given to the Father in Christ. God the Father has opened His House, the Trinity, by giving us a place in His Temple or His Home: the Son. Now, the Son Himself is Head and Body! We are called to participate in the life of Christ, to become God—not by nature, as He is—but “by participation.” This means that our place is not in Christ the Head but in Christ the Body. And as we have just seen, the Body of Christ is the Woman, Mary, “flesh of His flesh” and “bone of His bones”! These two “diagrams” are intertwined and inseparable! On the one hand, Christ is the place where we position ourselves (the Temple) to worship the Father. He is our place in the Trinity! On the other hand, He is God and deserves equal worship to that which we offer the Father, for He is our God and our all. These two truths function together but interweave in harmony. As St John states, the two lights in the Heavenly Jerusalem are the Father and the Lamb (Rev 21-22). As the diagram below illustrates, the two diagrams form but a single whole.
CB: Is there a danger in giving excessive reverence to Mary, and if so, how can we protect ourselves from it? How does Mary “serve” the worship given to God?
JK: Loving Mary truly, without limits, can only help us to love Christ better, for, as Montfort says, when we knock on the door of Mary, she says: Jesus! She has no other ambition than to lead us to Christ, to make Him known to us, and to teach us how to love Him because He is our God. God offers us Mary to avoid the slow and short ways of our own means to go to Christ! For, we often forget: the famous “go directly to Christ” (and thus avoid a second mediator between God the Father and us) is a blind objection, which fails to take into account that going directly to Christ is only seemingly attractive, because, in fact, we are using our own means! But our means are low, and our sight is short! We need the hands of Christ to raise us to Him, and He gives us His hands, they are Mary. Christ does not reveal Himself in the valley, He invites us to climb a very high mountain, and it is there that He reveals Himself as He is! Now this mountain is Mary, “flesh of His flesh”! Who does not eat His Body, who does not “sit in Mary,” how will they see Christ as He is? Their ways will not be transfigured into those of Mary!
In this sense, there are no limits to our love for Mary and our desire to approach her, to count on her prayer which lifts us up and allows us to know and love in the divine way. In this sense, not only is there no danger, on the contrary, it is a vital necessity, as we can see! Mary is not optional!
CB: Mary has appeared as much in the last few decades as she has over the past two millennia. Her messages are somewhat repetitive now, as if humanity urgently needs to listen to her. This is more an observation than a question, but I do wonder what it means.
JK: I would take up the idea developed by Montfort, long before this “proliferation” of Marian apparitions that we have experienced for decades now: we “needed first to make Christ known, for He is God,” but I would add that over the centuries, the Revelation that Christ brought us has developed, has become clearer, and thus, comes the time when the deepest secrets of holiness are made explicit. And this is Mary.
Without wishing to appear excessively tempering, I believe that the urgency of knowing Christ in fullness—the knowledge of Mary allows this urgency to develop—has existed from the very first generation of Christians! It is for each of us to dive into the depths of God’s Gift to discover its urgency, richness, beauty, and vital necessity.
If Mary’s messages seem “restricted” (or repetitive), it is because she is not tasked with teaching! This teaching already existed long before, instituted by Christ, and it is for ordinary pastoral care to deliver it. Mary does not replace ordinary pastoral care, which is of extraordinary richness! She comes to remind us of the Gospel and its richness, but it is up to us afterwards to attach ourselves not to what shines, but to the hidden depths of God’s Gift and to the happy adventure of deepening that leads to holiness. On the contrary, I believe that this multiplication of apparitions is a sign of weakness in the faith of the people of God. For, as I just said: the density of the Christian message is infinitely greater than the content of Mary’s messages—this in no way affects Mary’s fundamental place in our spiritual life! Sadly, often the devotees of apparitions tend to look for more the novelty or prophecies than the substance of the Gospel.
That said, these apparitions are often made to spark the spark of personal relationship with Christ, which makes us observe—at least in some recent apparitions—a high number of conversions! Undeniable grace. The big question that arises is this: “Conversion is magnificent, it is an unheard-of grace! But after that, what do we do? Does ordinary pastoral care succeed in taking over this intense spiritual life that has just been awakened, and lead it to holiness?”
I believe that, reasonably yes, there are reasons to say that Mary is concerned for us and, like any good mother, she seeks to awaken us to the Gift of God and its incredible richness.
I would like to return to the humility of Mary: The possibility of humbling oneself through charity is in our hands. “Whoever humbles themselves will be exalted.” (Mt 23:12; Lk 14:11; 18:14) Now God is at the lowest point, because He IS Charity itself which carries all, thinks of all, takes care of all and does not abandon anyone. He is at the bottom, in the last place. “When you are invited (by God) go to the last place” for it is there that you will best find God. For God is humble, He is humility itself.
To humble oneself through charity, moved by it, carried by it, is the path to true glory, it is the shortest path to fully reach God deep within ourselves.
This descent, moved by charity, is the Science of Mary. To want to fully unite with the Body of Christ, who is far from God—”The People who walked in darkness” (Is 9)—and to be in solidarity with Him, and beg God with Him, saying: send us the Saviour Messiah, the Desire of Nations, is to imitate God who is Charity. And who imitates God’s Charity only draws Him always more fully into themselves, for God is never overcome by charity.
Thus Mary seduced God, she drew Him into herself (“He has looked upon the humility of His servant”). She united with the whole Body of Christ—”Body” in potential and to be saved—who walked in darkness, she walked with Him, she humbly begged. She preferred the light of charity to any false light or glory.
“The nature of Love,” says Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, “is to humble oneself” (cf. Ms A 2v°, etc.). God is this Love. God is humble, He is humility itself. What Saint Thérèse says about herself can be fully applied to Mary. She comments on the “draw me, we will run” from the Song of Songs (Ct 1:4) and explains which way to run (up or down?) by saying: “I need only look at the Holy Gospel, and immediately I breathe in the fragrance of the life of Jesus and I know which way to run… It is not to the first place, but to the last that I rush, instead of advancing with the Pharisee, I repeat, filled with trust, the humble prayer of the publican, but above all, I imitate the conduct of Madeleine, her astonishing or rather her loving audacity that charms the Heart of Jesus, seduces mine. Yes, I feel it, even if I had all the sins that can be committed on my conscience, I would go, my heart broken with repentance, and throw myself into the arms of Jesus, for I know how much He cherishes the prodigal child who returns to Him.” (End of Manuscript C) Notice the line “it is not because God, in His foreseeing mercy, has preserved my soul from mortal sin” which directly refers to Mary. The fact that Mary is pure and immaculate, makes her more apt for the operations of Love, which will consequently make her run to the last place. This means that she will, moved by divine Love, unite with all sinners and “all the sins that can be committed” (“God made Him sin” as Saint Paul says in 2 Cor 5:21, He who never sinned) and she will do like the Publican; in reality, she will do, by anticipation, like the true David, Jesus, who asks forgiveness from the Father for the sins He did not commit, identifying with sinners and saying: “forgive me, for I have sinned” (Ps 50). What a mystery Divine Charity is, and its power both to reach those who are far and to raise them to God, to bring them back to Him! It is the deepest Secret of the Holy Spirit who knows what God the Father wants (cf. Rom 8:27): the salvation of all and infinite compassion towards those who are in darkness.
Following the Path of divine Charity, with Mary through Mary, with Jesus through Jesus, reveals to us the mysteries of Mary’s abasing that have succeeded in seducing and drawing God to the point of Incarnating in her. “My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour, for He has looked upon the humility of His servant.” (Lk 1) This “humility” is in our hands, we now know which direction to run: “Whoever humbles themselves [through divine Charity] will be exalted” (Mt 23:12; Lk 14:11; 18:14). The main effect of union with Mary, the new Eve, our Mother, is therefore this mysterious charity that only grows in us to embrace the whole world, and that makes us descend into the darkness of the shadow of death, where a whole people walks. Thus, we can say: “The people who walked in darkness have seen a great Light; upon those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, a Light has shone” (Is 9:1), the Saviour. It is through Mary that the Great Light has come to us, and shone upon us, for Mary wished to walk in the darkness, she wished, through her charity, to dwell in the land of the shadow of death and beg God to grant us the Messiah, all aflame with Divine Charity, with the Fire of the Holy Spirit.
II – Developments
CB: In the Magnificat, Mary says: “From now on, all generations will call me blessed.” All generations! … but it seems we’re far from that, doesn’t it? And it also seems to me that Mary hasn’t said her final word (of course, a trivial way of speaking), and that at the End of Time, She will be there to help us make the transition. Just as she will be there “at the hour of our death.” What do you think?
JK: Remark 1: It is important to distinguish in the Bible what is explicit from what is implicit. Some people say that the Bible explicitly says very little about Mary and through Mary. These same people forget that fundamental elements of our faith are expressed in the Bible in a more implicit than explicit way: think of the Trinity, and the two Natures of Christ (perfect God and perfect man). And yet, these two mysteries form a major part of our faith. That’s why we should avoid yielding to this shallow argument that only the explicit matters in the Bible. This is a great invitation when it comes to Mary, to enter the Bible through explicit passages to reach more implicit ones. Furthermore, when Christ says, “No one comes to the Father except through me” (Jn), we can measure both the explicit and implicit dimensions of this statement. Why not do the same with the passage you mention: “From now on, all generations will call me blessed”? The place of Mary in our Christian life is simply indispensable! It is not a matter of devotion, but a vital issue of spiritual growth. If Mary is presented by Luke and John as the one who is at the root of our act of faith, it is precisely to show what we owe to her!
Remark 2: The advancement of Grace through time allows what we call “the development” of the dogma, which is not the addition of new elements, but a better understanding, digestion, and use of the elements of faith already present since the death of the last apostle— the date that marks the completion of the formation of Christian Revelation. This development in the understanding of the mysteries of faith is well indicated in the Catechism in numbers 66-67, 94, and 2651, which merit being read and meditated on by everyone. The existence of this development clearly shows that, over the centuries, the Holy Spirit allows a deeper understanding of the mysteries of the faith.
By incorporating these two remarks, we can easily understand that our understanding of Mary’s place in our spiritual life and her integration into our practical life will inevitably undergo development.
It is equally obvious, on a different level, that Mary appears far more frequently, all over the world. That said, there is often a long journey between the phenomenon of apparitions and a deep understanding, according to the Living Tradition, of the richness that Mary truly brings to our spiritual life.
CB: Is Mary co-redemptrix?
JK: The term lends itself to at least two interpretations, of which only one is orthodox! The suffix “co” can mean: “equal,” or “in direct participation,” or on the other hand: “in dependence.” It is to avoid any possible misinterpretation that the Church has preferred, since before the Council, not to use it. We can note that John Paul II, despite being so Marian, avoided it by giving the title to his encyclical: “Mother of the Redeemer,” which, in its own way and paradoxically, is even more powerful. He went beyond the controversy to dive into the mystery of Mary. For him, the mystery is inviting, not discouraging.
However, this does mean that a correct reading of the term exists. And to be correct, it must firmly uphold the absolute nature of the Redemption accomplished by Christ on the Cross – only He is God and therefore the unique and absolute Mediator. That’s why Mary calls Christ her Savior (Luke 1)! Mary is not only a creature, but she is the first of the saved and she lives by faith! Let’s not forget that!
That said, she plays a unique role in the work of salvation, and she should not be placed as just another saint among many: Christ, by saving her, makes her “the Mother of all the Saved”! If Mary’s action and role are completely subordinate to those of Christ, things don’t stop there. The Savior makes her “the Mother of the Saved.” We see Him give Mary to Saint John (Jn 19:27). If He is the Way, He offers us part of that Way which is “in Him”: Mary. It is very difficult to separate Jesus from Mary. What God has joined, let no man separate!
Mary is the Mother of the whole Church, and in a certain sense, she is saved before the Church, in order to be “Mother of all the Saved,” through Christ and with Christ, of course.
Mary’s “yes” is absolutely decisive in our Salvation and in our ability to make an act of faith! She will say “yes” many times (her “yeses” are always for herself and for us – she is our Mother). She will play her role as Mother, through the Christ who dwells in her in fullness. She will say “yes” for herself and for us to God, before the Angel Gabriel!
And where no one could follow Christ (“Where I am going, you cannot follow me” (Jn 13)), she could follow Him, not only until His death but in those hours when she alone believed and said “yes” to the Resurrection: from 3 PM on Good Friday, until the Dawn of Sunday, during that unique and mysterious encounter with the Bridegroom who returns, rises. This “yes” she had to repeat hundreds of times, is a Unique Bridge that spans the Abyss and accompanies Christ as He descended to the depths, awaiting (I would say, attracting) Him Resurrected.
I dare say: without these “yeses,” without Mary as the Subject of faith (Jesus as the Head is the Object), our ability to believe would never have existed!
Now, Mary, being “the Woman” (Virago) (Gen 2 and Jn 2 and 19), Ishsha taken from Ish (Vir), she is truly “flesh of the flesh of Christ” and “bone of His bones.” What a mystery, not of Christ and the Church, but the mystery that underlies it: that of Christ and Mary, of Ish and Ishsha – a mystery we find in every line of the Song of Songs. You will notice that Christ calls her “Woman” twice in the Gospel of John, in an astonishing inclusion! Now, “Woman” is Ishsha (cf. Gen 2), the one God sought for Adam, Ish, “the helper fit for him,” “flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones”!
If we must hold the distinctions firm (Creator/creature, Savior/saved, Object of faith/subject of faith), this does not prevent us from sensing the greatness of the Mystery of Mary and her place in our life! Just as Christ is both God and man, Mary too has this dual dimension: on one side, she is Great, Mother of the Redeemer, the Woman, and on the other, she is “small,” that is: a creature, saved, living by faith.
CB: In the Hail Mary, we say: “Blessed are you among women.” And suddenly, I wonder why we don’t talk about all of humanity, men and women. Is there something even greater to understand here?
JK: You are absolutely right to point this out. In fact, “woman” should be taken in the sense of “subject of faith,” “land to be fertilised by the Seed of the Word,” and in this very feminine sense, Mary is both an example and archetype for both men and women! The “femininity” of the subject of faith is to be developed in each of us in the image and likeness of Mary. She is the perfect realization of the Subject of Faith. I elaborate on this extensively in the third part of my book “The Prayer of the Heart in the School of Mary.” Other “feminine” images for the “subject of faith” can be found in Scripture: the new wineskin, the Burning Bush, the moon, etc.
Furthermore, some spiritual authors have not hesitated to say that the soul within us is the one that gives birth to Jesus, the new man within us! In this sense, we are co-authors of our salvation. God, says Saint Augustine, created us without asking for our permission, but He will not save us without our consent! Thus, we are “mothers” of the new man within us, and we are so in the image and likeness of Mary.
This is why many spiritual authors invite us to let Mary grow in us, precisely to be able to receive Christ better. Mary is the first Gift of Christ to us, with the Holy Spirit. “When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold your son.’ Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold your mother.’ And from that hour, the disciple took her into his own home.” (Jn 19:26-27)
CB: How is it that Mary received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, when she had already been living fully with Him long before?
JK: There is no limit to the Growth of Grace in Mary and in us! The Holy Spirit grows in us “from beginning to beginning,” as Saint Gregory of Nyssa says.
That said, I lean more towards a different but complementary interpretation: Mary is “Full of Grace,” as the Angel says, and we can legitimately think that Mary, present among the Apostles, carrying them in her Most Powerful prayer, intercedes for them for the Coming of the Holy Spirit! Christ had asked them not to move but to wait for the Coming of the Spirit! Now, waiting happens through prayer, through Desire, through Asking. And is there any request more powerful than that of Mary? Is she not the Mother of the nascent Church, present at its Birth and constantly giving birth to it? Is she not the living Testament of Christ, the Ark of the Covenant, the Burning Bush, the Ladder of Jacob?
I prefer to believe that she intercedes and that she gives birth! Her mission continues, with the very young Church, she carries it.
CB: In the prayer group I occasionally attend, Mary is by no means neglected, but she is not spoken of at all as a “direct” means to Christ. How is this unfortunate?… I feel it like this, in fact. How can this be remedied, and is it possible without disrupting what is in place?
JK: Yes, often we hear: “I prefer to go directly to Christ.” As if “going to Mary” delays the journey or diverts us from Christ, even for a fraction of a second! But the short-sightedness lies in ignorance of a very present reality within us; when we say “I prefer to go directly to Christ,” in fact, we make an implicit but clear choice: we prefer to use our own means to reach Christ! Mary is not a goal, but a means, a vessel, the Subject of Faith! Christ is the object of it! Every object requires a subject to reach it; and when we say “subject,” we mean: the means proper to this subject! And our ignorance comes from the fact that we don’t realise we are opting for our own means, which are quite miserable! Those who supposedly prefer to go “directly to Christ” fail to see that they have chosen a very slow and deficient path: their own means! Why not take the Way, the Secret, that Christ gives us: Mary! She is the Woman, the Subject par excellence, the Mold of every other subject, She who knows Him and loves Him perfectly, She who offers us her abilities – of an unimaginable speed and height – to reach Christ! I often repeat: we do not go to the Moon on a bicycle! Yet, in fact, this is what we implicitly do when we decide to go directly to Christ by our own means! We need a rocket to reach the Height, the Depth, the Width, and the Length of Christ (Eph 3:18)! He gives it to us; let us receive it within us, as Saint John did (Jn 19).
How to remedy this? We need the humility to not claim to know everything, the humility to accept the development of our faith intelligence and to accept learning something implicit, thus moving towards an explicit understanding that leads to a “new” and deeper practice! If our goal in Christian life is to reach Christ in all His depth, to reach the fullness of His stature, it is completely normal to accept that our spiritual growth occurs in successive waves!
Reading Montfort[2] is a landmark moment in our life, and it creates a before and after this reading. It also leads to a renewed reading of the Scriptures, an ever-deeper understanding. (See here Montfort’s Book, “True Devotion to Mary”)
Let us not forget that “it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, it is the glory of kings to search it out” (Prov 25:2). “Search the Scriptures,” to scrutinise the Mystery of God is our vocation! To stop along the way is to not grow! Knowing the living Tradition in its elements is important! The liturgy – a fundamental element of the living Tradition – is the food of our faith, and it is important to visit the Eastern liturgies, which are extraordinarily rich in relation to Mary! They are no less Catholic! We must learn to breathe with both lungs, as John Paul II requested, the Eastern and the Western! The faithful of the Eastern Churches are often much better nourished by their liturgy regarding Mary.
CB: In the Ave, we say: “And the fruit of thy womb is blessed.” To what extent are we also the fruit of Mary’s womb?
JK: Let us return to our understanding of Christ Himself! Saint Augustine helps us here by speaking of the Total Christ, who is both Christ the Head (Jesus of Nazareth, true God and true man) and Christ the Body! We often forget, in our Christian life, in our spiritual life, in our life of prayer, to fix our gaze upon Christ the Body! Yet, He is also Christ, and we cannot separate what God has joined, especially not this link! No one can destroy this fundamental link between the Head and the Body; it is the most powerful link, says Saint John Chrysostom! Christ, in Matthew 25, clearly says: “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to me!” And to Saul, who persecutes the Church, the Body of Christ, He says: “Why are you persecuting me!” We forget too often Christ the Body!
Similarly, in our understanding of the relationship between Mary and Christ, we forget that Mary, the First, does not separate what God has joined, the Christ-Head and the Christ-Body, and just as she gave birth to the Christ-Head, Christ asked her to give birth to His Body: “When Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother: Woman, behold your son. Then He said to the disciple: Behold your mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own home” (Jn 19:26-27).
Thus, we are truly and fully the children of Mary on the Cross, and this by Christ’s will. “Son, honour your mother,” says Scripture, and this is also the fourth commandment to honour one’s parents!
CB: You said: “Christ on the Cross gives us Mary (cf. Jn 19), she is His Gift, she is His Testament.” This idea is so powerful, can you elaborate on it?
JK: It is striking to see that in Saint John’s Gospel, despite a long discourse from Christ during the Last Supper (Jn 13-17), the account of the institution of the Eucharist is not mentioned! Everyone finds one or several reasons for this, and I am sure many of them are valid. Some say that for Saint John, it is the washing of the feet that takes the place of the Eucharist. That said, the explanations for this absence leave me unsatisfied!
It is by returning to the deep meaning of the word “Woman” used by Christ to address Mary that I find profoundly illuminating insights. Naming is fundamental! God asks Adam to name the creatures! But God is looking for a being who can be both similar and a helper for Adam! Christ is the New Adam, says Saint Paul. And Christ, at Cana and on the Cross, gives a name to Mary: Woman! Now Genesis gives us a light because it explains the origin of the word “woman.” When God brings the woman to Adam, seeing her for the first time, he exclaims: “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh! She shall be called Woman, for she was taken out of man” (Gen 2:23). There are profound things here that it is almost forbidden to say! Woman in Hebrew is “Ishsha,” and man is “Ish.” Ishsha is taken from Ish, which is why she is called Ishsha! She who comes from the Side of Christ on the Cross, the first of the Saved, is indeed Mary, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones! He is her true Father (“daughter of your Son,” says Dante).
At the Supper, in the Synoptics, we find the words where Christ gives His body and blood! In Saint John, Christ, on the Cross, gives us the Woman, Ishsha, “flesh of His flesh, bone of His bones.” Who can understand, let him understand! Here and there He gives His Testament, all His wealth, what is most precious to Him, the only Vessel capable of containing Him in fullness! The Byzantine liturgy says that Mary is the One who could contain the One whom the Heavens cannot contain; she has her Icon: the Platytéra.
In giving her to us, He gives us the Vessel that contains Him in fullness, He gives us the capacity to contain Him in fullness! Who can understand?
I would add: Mary is the Key to entering the World of God, the key to the possible, given by Christ. She softens our being; through her action, she transforms our heart of stone into a heart of flesh, she humanises it, virgins it, makes it capable of Christ. She who gave the human nature to Christ! She is wholly shaped by Grace. God is sovereign in Her, and everything He wants in Her, He does. There are no obstacles in Her to the work of God, to His will, to the Action of the Holy Spirit. And in Her, He wants only one thing: to form Christ, to form the Body of Christ.
CB: You mentioned earlier that Mary “is a bit like ‘God turned upside down,’ a capacity to receive God,” that Mary’s humility “is an abyss of depth, an incredible capacity to receive God, and all of humanity in Her.” Could you elaborate on this idea of the capacity to receive all humanity? The fact that she can contain both Christ the Head and the Body.
JK: Christ gives a very close example of these “concepts,” He speaks of the old wineskin and the new wineskin! This example speaks of “capacity,” of the container! He desires that every human being becomes capable of receiving God, of carrying God, of being transformed in Him, in fullness. Saint Paul will use other expressions, he will say that Christ must grow in us until the fullness of His stature! He will also say that we are invited to experience the fullness of the Love of Christ, His Height, His Depth, His Length, and His Width! So, you see that the notion of “containing” the Divinity, or the entire Christ in fullness, already exists for us! By our calling, we are invited to the Divinisation of our being, to participation in the Divine Life, in the Life of the Trinity, in its internal and external operations. This is astonishing, but it is the very Greatness of God’s Gift to us! God gives nothing less than God Himself!
Mary, as the archetype of the Subject of faith, lives this in fullness: she is the New Wineskin par excellence, the Good Earth par excellence, etc. This is why, as the Council says, the faithful contemplate in Her the most perfect realisation of their own destiny. In her, we contemplate the fulfilment of all Christ’s promises for us. Moreover, as a Mother who forms and gives birth to the faithful, Mary transmits to us her own capacity to know and love Christ in fullness.
When God creates the human being in His Image and Likeness, He makes him capable of Him, capable of entering into contact with Him, of participating in His Divine Life. When Adam disobeys God, the Fathers of the Church consider that he loses the Likeness of God. Christ comes to restore it. Mary, the first of the Saved, is the perfect realisation of this recovered Likeness. She is the perfect example of those who hear the Word of God (Christ) and put it into practice! She is the Good Earth, capable of receiving all the Seeds of Christ, Christ Himself, and making them bear fruit in fullness.
CB: You quote Saint Thérèse of Lisieux, who says of Mary: “The virtues of the Mother belong to the child.” This is a rather significant statement. Does it refer to a verse from the Old Testament: “The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge” (cf. Ezekiel 18:2; Jeremiah 31:29-30)?
JK: Absolutely not! Even though we inherit many things from our parents (biologically and otherwise, through education, etc.), our choices and progress are our own! When we die and appear before God, He will not say to us: your father or mother sinned, and therefore you must pay! He will say, instead: here is what you had, how did you make it grow?
Saint Thérèse, in this quotation, takes the latter perspective: we have an inheritance (Mary), how have we made it grow? She sees Mary as her Mother in the spiritual sense of motherhood. The Mother, in this sense, imprints in her child – always in the spiritual sense – her own virtues, transmits her own capacity!
We are used to – Thérèse too – considering the greatness of Mary, and instead of contemplating this greatness and the extraordinary qualities of Mary as an unattainable, overwhelming object, she lifts the veil on an important truth: without diminishing the greatness of Mary, she makes it accessible to us: she solemnly tells us: Mary is given to us, her virtues, her capacities are given to us, and we are called to be transformed in her, to become like her in order to know and love Christ, not with our own capacity but with Mary’s! She thus solves the conundrum! We can therefore legitimately aspire to the height, depth, width, and length of Mary’s capacities to know and love Christ!
CB: You say: “What does it mean to ‘love’, to truly love Mary? To ‘love’ is to unite the lover with the beloved; to love transforms the one who loves into the beloved. Oh yes, it would be enough to love Mary! But one must love her deeply, totally, not as a goal in itself (only God is God).” Are you here referring to a love that is too EROS, dismissing AGAPE?
JK: We have two capacities for love, an erotic one and one of charity (agape). We cannot choose between them, as all our capacities are called to invest in God’s Love! The First Commandment loudly proclaims: “You shall love with all your capacities” eros and agape. The love that we are tempted to reserve for our spouse is also and above all invited to invest in the Love of Christ! Mary loved Christ, her God, with all her heart!
To truly love Mary is to allow one’s own affections to be purified and elevated to love her in Truth! Christ makes this very clear: Mary is to be loved not because she is His Mother, the one who conceived and nursed Him, but because she is the first to have listened to God and to have put His Word into practice! She kept everything of His Word in her heart, and she made the Word bear fruit to the fullest.
To love her is to allow these measures to prevail, not a low affection left to itself and trapped within itself! If, when turning to Mary, we seek affection with a right intention towards her, desiring to quench the thirst of a human heart, she will welcome our plea, grasping all that is good and right in our intention, and she will strive to elevate and purify it day by day – of course, to the extent that we desire to grow and let her work within us. In fact, she vigilantly ensures that we do not attach ourselves to her in a purely human manner (in the low and negative sense of the term).
Love for Mary is not mere optional devotion! Love for Mary is the very intelligence of the Mystery of Christ and the key to a righteous path that leads to the heart of the Mystery of Christ. Love for Mary is, therefore, not an optional devotion but a vital necessity to know Christ in the manner of the Good Earth, and of the New Heaven!
The more we progress, the more we realise that this love becomes stronger – I dare say: more virile – we will understand that if we end up throwing away the bathwater, we keep the baby! As Saint Paul says: I no longer have Christ in a human way! We will say the same about Mary.
CB: “Mary comes entirely from Christ, ‘flesh of His flesh,’ and is not a parallel principle to Christ. It is in the side of Christ that she finds her source!” Is this constant back and forth in the Gospels (the passages of “Mary at the Visitation” and “Mary at the Cross” seem to exist in the same divine moment) something that was clear to the Evangelists, or did they express this inspired by the Spirit, and we understand it later?
JK: I believe that, as much as possible, we must recognise a certain symbiosis between the one true Author of the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit, and the various human authors. God does not nullify the work of the Spirit in the intelligence and will of each sacred author (that would be a detestable[3] “divine dictation”); He calls for a maturation that lasts for years and decants the mysteries. That said, we must not forget the Divine Author, the Holy Spirit, who has every right, while inspiring the sacred authors, to hide treasures and lights that surpass their capacities, and which astonish us every time we re-read the same passage! A single passage is inexhaustible, and every time we re-read it in the Spirit, He makes us discover new aspects! This is what Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus says: “But above all, it is the Gospel that sustains me during my prayers; in it, I find everything necessary for my poor little soul. I always discover new lights, hidden and mysterious meanings…”[4] It is through a long acquaintance with Scripture, in praying it, that we find, day after day, the implicit dimensions of God’s Word. This is what the Fathers have taught us to do.
So, let us not be surprised to find connections between different passages, different mysteries, “comings and goings”. “The tradition of Christian prayer is one of the forms of growth in the Tradition of faith, especially through the contemplation and study of believers who keep in their hearts the events and words of the Economy of salvation, and through the deep penetration of the spiritual realities they experience (cf. DV 8).” (Catechism no. 2651)
It is through diligent acquaintance with Scripture that the veil is lifted, revealing the depths of the mystery of Mary and her relationship with Christ the Head and Christ the Body.
CB: “Let God be God in her and act as only God can act in her!” God remains the Uncreated in the face of Mary too; she cannot apprehend Him in His entirety since she is created, but God pours “grace upon grace” into her as a progressive unveiling of Himself, and this indefinitely. This is also what awaits those who enter the Kingdom of God, and it is something that could be said to those who “fear” a sort of boring eternal rest, and because of that, choose to be atheists…
JK: The action of God in the humanity of Christ, in Mary, and in us occurs on three different levels: the spirit (the place par excellence of Resemblance to God), the conscious soul, and the body. The action of God in the spirit is supra-conscious, that is, it is higher than consciousness, perception, the realm of the soul and body. It is like the part of a high mountain that lies beyond the clouds and sees the Sun (God) directly. This action is closer to the Infinite God than to the finite soul and body. In this sense, the action of God in the spirit and its perception (by echo or redundancy) in the soul are two different things! That’s why we say we live by faith, as this refers to the distinction between the two zones of our being! That’s why the soul and body will always experience something much lesser (since they are created) of God’s Gift. On the other hand, the spirit has before it the substantial Table of God’s very being and His operations.
In a certain sense, the spirit embraces, holds, and is held infinitely more fully than the soul-body composite, which, even with the greatest perceptions of “God,” remains a limited receptacle when compared to the spirit.
That’s why Christ points to the necessity for the spirit to be reborn by the Spirit, to be divinised, in order to have a full relationship with God, even here on earth.
It is important to maintain these distinctions so that we do not base our spiritual life solely on what is perceived in the soul and body! It would be focusing on crumbs, a drop of water, and forgetting the substantial Table, and the Ocean of God, which are the pastures of the spirit[5].
CB: We are created in the image and likeness of God, [we then lose this likeness through the Fall, and later regain it through Redemption-sanctification], but only Mary achieves this full likeness. Are we like a mirror (what is on the left is seen on the right, when we think of the “Kingdom of God”, we think of “power”, while it is about “Charity”, etc.), a defective mirror, even, with our humanity that thinks more about elevating itself than running to the last place? … And rather than letting God reflect in His creation, we take pleasure in admiring ourselves as if in this false mirror! … Is it possible to break it without damaging ourselves?
JK: God is humility itself! Mary is the most humble creature. It is in the valley that the rainwater accumulates. “Going to the last place” means going towards God Himself, who occupies it. The new man understands this new logic of the Kingdom. It is the old man who struggles, trying to keep his rights in a history that is now slipping away from him more and more. The more we nourish the new man within us, Christ and His Word, the more we give all our energy to it, the less we nourish the old man! He withers by himself! We do not need to “break” him! The defective mirror is the old man! The renewed mirror, created by the hands of God, through our listening and docility, is the new man. The logic of the old man is the logic of power, and that of the new man is service. The concept of glory and of God are misunderstood by the old man! This is why they wanted to make Jesus a very human Messiah, with power, an earthly kingdom, etc. The first part of our journey following Christ is still human because our means are still very human (in the negative sense of the term)! They have not yet been transformed into divine means, those of Mary, those of the new man. When Saint Paul says that he no longer knows Christ in a human way, he highlights the existence of at least two ways of following Him: a purely human one and a divine one. Hence the importance of realising that it is not enough to follow Christ; we must also give importance to the way in which we follow Him! This is where Mary intervenes, and the Holy Spirit begins to work deeply in our roots to follow Christ-God divinely. The transition from the human way to the divine way of following Christ, when it is done under the guidance of Mary, takes place more effectively and more gently.
III – Practical Questions
CB: How can we take Mary into our home as Saint John did (Jn 19)?
JK: Introduction: Here we are in the realm of practically practical questions. The risk sometimes is that we speak beautifully about Mary, but then fail to draw the practical consequences! Sometimes, we read a beautiful book about Mary, and are left with a lovely impression in our hearts, believing that it is inscribed within us, without asking ourselves the essential and practical question: “How can what I have read become real life within me?” It is this question that is decisive, for it allows the Word, the Words of Christ, to become incarnate in us and give us life. Only the one who has the experience of passing from hearing the Word of Christ, from reading it, to actually internalising it, digesting it, assimilating it—can measure the difference between a spiritual life full of illusions and a real, incarnated spiritual life, where Christ truly becomes intimately the life of our life. This is true science.
Receiving her as our Mother involves spiritual activities such as “receiving her into our home”, “entering into her”, “drawing our ‘yes’ from hers” etc. These expressions essentially have the same spiritual content.
Receiving her into our home. Let us now move on to your question: “How can we take Mary into our home, as Saint John did? (Jn 19)”. Knowing that Christ gives us His Mother as His most precious treasure is one thing, but knowing how to receive her, how to welcome her, and what to do to keep her in our home, is quite another. We need to understand what “taking her into our home” means! What “home” are we talking about? It is an interior home, the heart. We know that Mary is the mould that God uses to form Christ in us. We also know that God transforms our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh (Ez 36).
Entering into her. We also know that just as there is the expression “to take her into our home”, there is also the expression: “to enter into her”. “How to enter into her?” asks Nicodemus. How, as an adult, can we enter into her, grow, and finally be reborn? “Nicodemus said to Him, ‘How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the womb a second time and be born?’” (Jn 3) And to Jesus’ words, Nicodemus responds, “How can this be?” (Jn 3) Here is the great mystery of the Gospel: how to enter into Mary, to be reborn and made capable of faith? “Jesus replied, ‘You are Israel’s teacher, and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen; but still you people do not accept our testimony.’” (Jn 3:10-11). This is the only thing that matters; it is the essence of the Gospel, and yet the one who is a teacher in Israel does not know it! Mary is the House of the Father, and Christ has prepared a place for us in her. “In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (Jn 14:2-3)
Here’s what Grignon de Montfort says: “Saint Augustine, surpassing himself, and all that I have just said, says that all the predestined, in order to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, are in this world hidden in the womb of the Most Holy Virgin, where they are kept, nourished, cared for, and enlarged by this good Mother, until she brings them forth to glory, after death, which is properly the day of their birth, as the Church calls the death of the just. Oh, mystery of grace, unknown to the reprobates and little known even to the predestined!” (Montfort, True Devotion, 33)[6]
We are invited to live hidden in the Womb of Mary. Saint Paul says: “Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.” Mary is in Christ, facing Christ, the spouse nestled in Christ, and Christ in her. Christ and Mary are “above” in Heaven. Let us therefore try to enter into Mary. Saint Paul continues: “Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God: When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” (Colossians 3:1-4) Our life is hidden in Mary, nestled in Christ.
Drawing our “yes” from her “yes”. Here is yet another notion that involves the same type of operation. We need Mary’s being to pass into us, or for the Holy Spirit to make our hearts like the Heart of Mary, docile, attentive, able to make silence, a full silence capable of letting the Word speak in Him. We wish to receive Mary’s purity, her ability to put God first in her heart, in her choices.
For these three operations to take place, it is important to know how to offer ourselves to Mary, to place our being in her Hands, asking her to mould us in the Likeness of her Son. Thus, the Spirit purifies us, divinises us, and Mary humanises us, making us always more like Christ, who is gentle and humble of heart. To receive her as our mother means giving her everything, and then giving ourselves to her, entirely and unconditionally. To place ourselves under her influence, under her Direction. This act of giving everything is done by the will[7], choosing to do so. And the act of wanting to do it, of saying it, of voluntarily choosing to give her the things, the people, the relationships, the worries, and finally, and above all, ourselves, like a child, with simplicity, total trust, and abandonment, allows us to be under her influence and gives her (giving her complete freedom) to act in us as she sees fit. We begin to experience the effects of her action in us.
Often, we carry the worry of many things, and this burden often becomes an obstacle to our spiritual life, to our growth (the gestation in Mary). Let us not forget that our spiritual growth is not something that happens automatically; on the contrary, it depends on us. The correct use of our freedom, by giving ourselves to Mary, allows us to place ourselves under her influence and experience the difference.
What we need to understand is that Mary’s Faith is given to us. This is what Saint Thérèse of Lisieux says: “The virtues of the Mother belong to the child” (PN 54). Her Hope and her Charity also.
CB: How can we practically allow Mary to grow in us?
JK: This question is fundamental. Just as we are called to have a relationship with Christ, we also have a relationship with Mary. At first, this relationship is more sensitive, more emotional, and more affective. God takes us as we are, and Mary does too. That being said, she teaches us a certain detachment from what is felt, from emotions, in order to go deeper and to rely more on God, on faith, rather than on the sensible, the emotional. This relationship with Mary thus develops, and we learn to know her and allow ourselves to be guided by her. We learn to entrust to her everything we experience, and especially to entrust to her our spiritual life, which now finds itself in her, in a state of gestation! She nourishes and makes Christ grow silently and effectively within us. This relationship requires that we spend regular time with her, to go to her School, as Pope John Paul II said in his beautiful letter on the Rosary shortly before his death. If Christ, who is our Way, went to her School, we can certainly imitate Christ and learn from Him. One of the fundamental benefits of Mary is that she humanises us! Our hardened heart, initially unable to open up to ourselves (the patience, humility, and mercy towards oneself) and to others, through the humanising (incarnating) action of Mary, becomes increasingly “flesh”, like that of Christ. We often think of divinisation, sanctification, and union with God as something stratospheric, and we forget that in Christ dwells the fullness of Divinity and that it is entirely possible to live something of that fullness here on earth without aspiring towards a disembodied God! God is more human than we are, and it is at Mary’s School that we learn this! We often imagine God and a logic (an “spirit”, as the Bible would say) as disembodied. However, Mary brings us back to the Incarnation and its logic, its spirit! This is why Mary is said to be victorious over all heresies, for as Saint John says in his letter, the root of all heresies is to deny the Incarnation: “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus is not of God” (1 John 4:2-3). Thus, this is a fundamental aspect of the formation given by Mary’s care! It is our Path, there are no others.
The further we go, the more we realise that Mary’s role in our spiritual and human life (which must not be separated) becomes essential. The Holy Spirit guides us, month after month, year after year, leading us to discover always new aspects in Mary. Our love for her only grows and strengthens. For this path of learning Christ is dotted with acts of charity and fidelity that strengthen us in Christ. Then comes the time of the Great purification, when God will ask us to rely only on Him, and it is in Mary that this detachment can take place, because she is that Breast which does not “cling” to the earth or to heaven, but to God alone and purely. It is in her that resides the divine way of knowing and loving Christ that God wants to give us! It is in her that we can realise it most perfectly.
This reminds me of the very beautiful, deep, and theological comparison that Montfort makes by saying that Mary is our mould: “Please notice that I say the saints are moulded in Mary. There is a great difference between making a figure in relief, with hammer and chisel, and making a figure by casting it in a mould: sculptors and statuaries work much to create figures in the first way, and it takes them a lot of time; but when making them in the second way, they work little and make them in very little time. Saint Augustine calls the Blessed Virgin forma Dei: the mould of God: Si formam Dei te appellem, digna existis; the mould proper for forming and moulding gods. Whoever is cast in this divine mould is soon formed and moulded into Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ in him: with little effort and in a short time, he will become god, since he is cast into the same mould that formed a God.” (True Devotion, 219). It is always good to reread, to savour, and to be instructed by the True Devotion by Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort. It is an inexhaustible mine of wisdom.
Learning to let go, to lose spiritual supports—meaning everything spiritual that is not God, the tastes, the visions, the consolations, the spiritual gluttony, etc.—this happens more quickly and effectively in and through Mary. Thus, her faith passes into us, meaning that her way of seeing, contemplating, looking, and believing passes into us! As Pope John Paul II says in his great Encyclical on Mary (Redemptoris Mater). Her charity passes into us too, just as nourishment passes from the mother to the child through the umbilical cord. Her way of loving Christ, and loving the Body of Christ, pure and detached, without support, passes into us. While we learn to entrust everything to her, and offer everything to her, including our merits, as Montfort says (True Devotion to Mary, 121). She thus clothes us with her merits, and we enter into the density of the Divine Cloud where only God dwells.
As you can see, this path is dotted with acts where we learn to follow the indications and advice of Mary. And it is these acts that make us grow, that make Christ grow in us until He reaches the fullness of His stature in us.
CB: Are there practical means to use every day?
JK: As I said above, it is important to do two things:
1. To dedicate a special daily time to her (some people say the Rosary, which gives you an idea of the time to spend). It is important that this time is not lived as a routine, but as a real encounter, where we converse with her. Indeed, we cannot engage in any spiritual exercise (Mass, Divine Office, Lectio Divina, Prayer of the heart (mental prayer)) without her! It makes no sense! But a special time spent solely and purely with her is important. If Christ on the Cross asks us to receive her into our homes, it is important to realise this Testament of Christ and thus spend time with her! Whoever does this will gain much. We can also reread all the passages from the wisdom books (the Book of Wisdom, Proverbs, etc.) where Wisdom is mentioned in a Marian key! That is, whenever Wisdom is mentioned that Solomon asks for and praises, see Mary in it. These texts then take on a power and consolation that only someone who has experienced them can understand.
2. Throughout the day, do your best not to leave her, until it becomes a habit in us and she is with us during the day, by our side! This is best done by offering yourself briefly to her from time to time. One doesn’t need to spend ages imagining her there. She is there, we are the ones who then benefit from remembering that she is always there as our Mother ready to bring us to her Son. It is a small movement of our will and heart towards her – this can be accompanied by an internal word of prayer ‘Mary’, ‘Mary,I love you’
3. Another very important practical way of knowing her better and realising how important it is we go to her, is using her eyes and heart when we go to Scripture through Lectio Divina. We will hear the Lord speak to us clearly when we listen to Him leaning on her capacity – as stated above Elizabeth said “Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord’s word to her will be fulfilled.” With her faith, her eyes and her heart we will see and hear Jesus in Scripture and He will show us his mother and her place in our journey.
CB: What should we do practically to love Mary more and more?
JK: If we practice faithfully everything I have just mentioned above, it is certain that our love for Mary will increase. The Holy Spirit has only one thing to do: to bring Christ to birth in us and in our brothers, to make Him grow. But where does this birthing take place? In Mary! Why would God change His logic, or His way of doing things! And if He did it for the Master, He will do it for the Disciple as well. Every well-formed disciple will be like his Master and not above his Master! To want to follow another logic is like thinking we are superior to Christ!
May Mary grow in us, may our hearts of stone become hearts of flesh, hearts of Mary in us, so that we may welcome the Incarnate Word as she did.
Jean Khoury, London, September-November 2009
[1] Self-abasement = a voluntary lowly position, due to Mary’s charity in wanting to welcome within herself all of humanity that thirsts for the Redeeming God.
[2] Despite the outdated nature of the form and content in some passages of his Treatise on True Devotion, Montfort conveys brilliant and very useful nourishment.
[3] Detestable, because it is magical, the slobber of the ‘devil’ (diabolos: the one who separates from God), and contrary to God’s design, to the logic of the Incarnation, which wants God to have incarnated in order to give us human-divine words that are Spirit and Life, thus engaging our intelligence and will, and offering mankind the possibility of a divine friendship, where one is taught directly by God (cf. Jn 6:45, 1 Jn 2:27, Amos 3:7).
[4] Saint Therese of the Child Jesus, Manuscript A 83° v.
[5] In this regard, it is good to reread Chapter 29 of the second book of The Ascent of Mount Carmel. This is precisely why we receive Communion at Mass, which is far greater than we are; it is God Himself whom we receive. It is also for this reason that we prolong Communion with the Prayer of the Heart. It is especially the spirit that is nourished during these precious moments.
[6] “God the Holy Spirit wants to form in her and through her the elect, and He says to her: In electis meis mitte radices‘ Throw, my beloved and my Spouse, the roots of all your virtues into my elect, so that they may grow from virtue to virtue and from grace to grace. I took such pleasure in you when you lived on earth practicing the most sublime virtues, that I still desire to find you on earth, without ceasing to be in heaven. Reproduce yourself for this purpose in my elect: that I may see in them with pleasure the roots of your invincible faith, your deep humility, your universal mortification, your sublime prayer, your ardent charity, your firm hope, and all your virtues. You are still my Spouse, as faithful, as pure, and as fruitful as ever: may your faith give me faithful ones; may your purity give me virgins; may your fertility give me the elect and temples.'” (True Devotion, 34)
[7] “By the will,” meaning not necessarily waiting for specific feelings or sensory perceptions. It is enough to desire something in a determined way, to express it inwardly.